Comments for Text & Texture http://text.rcarabbis.org Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:52:33 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 Comment on The Aleinu Prayer and the Pardes Story: Major Trends in Hekhalot Literature Research by Shlomo Brody by Shlomo Brody http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-aleinu-prayer-and-the-pardes-story-major-trends-in-hekhalot-literature-research-by-shlomo-brody/comment-page-1/#comment-1238 Shlomo Brody Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:52:33 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1091#comment-1238 Thank you for your notes. Prof. Davila is correct that I missed some of the research from the past couple of years. I very much appreciate the update. Your point about earlier origins of this tradition is important - I think, to a certain extent, Prof. Rachel Elior has tried to advocate such a view in some of her writings. In terms of the author of aleinu: Mark is correct that there are differnet traditions of who wrote it - indicative, to a certain extent, of its murky origins. Be that as it may, its first appearance in writing is in this literature. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Thank you for your notes.
Prof. Davila is correct that I missed some of the research from the past couple of years. I very much appreciate the update. Your point about earlier origins of this tradition is important – I think, to a certain extent, Prof. Rachel Elior has tried to advocate such a view in some of her writings.

In terms of the author of aleinu: Mark is correct that there are differnet traditions of who wrote it – indicative, to a certain extent, of its murky origins. Be that as it may, its first appearance in writing is in this literature.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

]]> Comment on The Aleinu Prayer and the Pardes Story: Major Trends in Hekhalot Literature Research by Shlomo Brody by Jim Davila http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-aleinu-prayer-and-the-pardes-story-major-trends-in-hekhalot-literature-research-by-shlomo-brody/comment-page-1/#comment-1237 Jim Davila Mon, 06 Sep 2010 09:06:37 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1091#comment-1237 Thanks for this useful summary. Schäfer has recently published an important book on the subject: The Origins of Jewish Mysticism (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2009). You may also be interested in my article "The Hodayot Hymnist and the Four Who Entered Paradise," Revue de Qumran 17/65-68 (1996): 457-78, in which I argue that central themes in the Story of the Four are present already in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Note also my 2000 commentary on the Qumran Liturgical Works and the recent books by Ra'anan Boustan on the Hekhalot Rabbati, Annette Yoshiko Reed on the transmission of the Enochic traditions (with lots on 3 Enoch), and Andrei Orlov on Enoch-Metatron and the relationship of 2 Enoch to the Hekhalot texts. Thanks for this useful summary. Schäfer has recently published an important book on the subject: The Origins of Jewish Mysticism (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2009). You may also be interested in my article “The Hodayot Hymnist and the Four Who Entered Paradise,” Revue de Qumran 17/65-68 (1996): 457-78, in which I argue that central themes in the Story of the Four are present already in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Note also my 2000 commentary on the Qumran Liturgical Works and the recent books by Ra’anan Boustan on the Hekhalot Rabbati, Annette Yoshiko Reed on the transmission of the Enochic traditions (with lots on 3 Enoch), and Andrei Orlov on Enoch-Metatron and the relationship of 2 Enoch to the Hekhalot texts.

]]> Comment on The Aleinu Prayer and the Pardes Story: Major Trends in Hekhalot Literature Research by Shlomo Brody by Mark Kerzner http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-aleinu-prayer-and-the-pardes-story-major-trends-in-hekhalot-literature-research-by-shlomo-brody/comment-page-1/#comment-1236 Mark Kerzner Mon, 06 Sep 2010 03:54:48 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1091#comment-1236 Correction: I want to write about you After I asked my question, it occurred to me that one blanket permission can be found in the words of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai himself, who says that "if you want to hang yourself, hang yourself on a big tree" - which means that if one wants to prove his point, then one should say that his point was stated by a great personality. That would literally be an advice for pseudepigraphical attribution. Correction: I want to write about you

After I asked my question, it occurred to me that one blanket permission can be found in the words of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai himself, who says that “if you want to hang yourself, hang yourself on a big tree” – which means that if one wants to prove his point, then one should say that his point was stated by a great personality. That would literally be an advice for pseudepigraphical attribution.

]]> Comment on The Aleinu Prayer and the Pardes Story: Major Trends in Hekhalot Literature Research by Shlomo Brody by Mark Kerzner http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-aleinu-prayer-and-the-pardes-story-major-trends-in-hekhalot-literature-research-by-shlomo-brody/comment-page-1/#comment-1235 Mark Kerzner Mon, 06 Sep 2010 03:48:22 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1091#comment-1235 Dear Shlomo: I am currently studying your writings, because I want you write about you on the Beren Parents' Blog here: http://berenparents.blogspot.com/ How do we explain the tradition that Aleinu was written by Yehoshua, and its second part - by Achan (it starts with the letters of his name?) Do we say that this too is a pseudepigraphical attribution, and if so, how do we prove it? Thank you, Mark Dear Shlomo:

I am currently studying your writings, because I want you write about you on the Beren Parents’ Blog here: http://berenparents.blogspot.com/

How do we explain the tradition that Aleinu was written by Yehoshua, and its second part – by Achan (it starts with the letters of his name?) Do we say that this too is a pseudepigraphical attribution, and if so, how do we prove it?

Thank you,
Mark

]]> Comment on What is Lost as We Eliminate the Impossible: Jews and Public Schools by Gidon Rothstein by Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/what-is-lost-as-we-eliminate-the-impossible-jews-and-public-schools-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1233 Gidon Rothstein Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:16:18 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1086#comment-1233 Sure, you're right, except that we could have it be gradual, theoretically-- students in the younger grades could only go until 5:30, gradually working their way up to 7 (in the younger grades, too, there's less homework). Sure, you’re right, except that we could have it be gradual, theoretically– students in the younger grades could only go until 5:30, gradually working their way up to 7 (in the younger grades, too, there’s less homework).

]]> Comment on What is Lost as We Eliminate the Impossible: Jews and Public Schools by Gidon Rothstein by Shlomo Argamon http://text.rcarabbis.org/what-is-lost-as-we-eliminate-the-impossible-jews-and-public-schools-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1232 Shlomo Argamon Fri, 03 Sep 2010 01:42:43 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1086#comment-1232 This is a great exercise to understand better the opportunity costs inherent in the current day school regime. However, your calculations at least vis-a-vis the school year are a bit off, since after the end of the school day at 7pm, the kids would still have to do homework, eat dinner, bathe, do chores, and (ideally) have a little more break time before going to bed. At least through 8th grade, kids really need to get to bed by 9pm to get enough sleep, so there really just aren't enough hours in the day, and so it's not just a matter of not being disciplined enough. This is a great exercise to understand better the opportunity costs inherent in the current day school regime.

However, your calculations at least vis-a-vis the school year are a bit off, since after the end of the school day at 7pm, the kids would still have to do homework, eat dinner, bathe, do chores, and (ideally) have a little more break time before going to bed. At least through 8th grade, kids really need to get to bed by 9pm to get enough sleep, so there really just aren’t enough hours in the day, and so it’s not just a matter of not being disciplined enough.

]]> Comment on What is Lost as We Eliminate the Impossible: Jews and Public Schools by Gidon Rothstein by Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/what-is-lost-as-we-eliminate-the-impossible-jews-and-public-schools-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1231 Gidon Rothstein Fri, 03 Sep 2010 01:00:39 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1086#comment-1231 Right, I agree; I didn't actually mean to promote public schools and TTs as an option, but to note that because we can't be disciplined enough to make that system work, we have to spend lots of money (and energy, another finite resource) on Jewish education that might be better spent elsewhere. Right, I agree; I didn’t actually mean to promote public schools and TTs as an option, but to note that because we can’t be disciplined enough to make that system work, we have to spend lots of money (and energy, another finite resource) on Jewish education that might be better spent elsewhere.

]]> Comment on What is Lost as We Eliminate the Impossible: Jews and Public Schools by Gidon Rothstein by Steve Brizel http://text.rcarabbis.org/what-is-lost-as-we-eliminate-the-impossible-jews-and-public-schools-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1230 Steve Brizel Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:05:09 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1086#comment-1230 I atttended Talmud Torah after my public school day was over and learned how to daven and recite a Haftarah for my Bar Mitzvah as well gained familiarity with the Hagaddah. In the late 1960s, it was not an environment where one gained textual literacy in any basic Jewish text. If I had not been motivated to attend YU by my experience in NCSY, I would have remained textually illiterate, as I suspect many who attended only Talmud Torah or even a Hebrew High School also did as well. I question whether such a premise is valid given the social and cultural milieu that we live in today and the fact that day school and yeshiva education should be seen together with a strong sense of Jewish values in one's home as the best basis for for a strong Jewish identity. I atttended Talmud Torah after my public school day was over and learned how to daven and recite a Haftarah for my Bar Mitzvah as well gained familiarity with the Hagaddah. In the late 1960s, it was not an environment where one gained textual literacy in any basic Jewish text. If I had not been motivated to attend YU by my experience in NCSY, I would have remained textually illiterate, as I suspect many who attended only Talmud Torah or even a Hebrew High School also did as well. I question whether such a premise is valid given the social and cultural milieu that we live in today and the fact that day school and yeshiva education should be seen together with a strong sense of Jewish values in one’s home as the best basis for for a strong Jewish identity.

]]> Comment on Would We Recognize the Ten Plagues Today? by Gidon Rothstein by Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/would-we-recognize-the-ten-plagues-today-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1228 Gidon Rothstein Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:13:25 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1060#comment-1228 These are good questions, but ones that have been answered before in the classic discussions of the Biblical text. While you're right that the plagues weren't to get the Egyptians to repent their general sins, they were specifically to get the Egyptians (of their own free will) to accept God's command to let the Jews go. As Ramban notes, the loss of freewill seems to have happened after the first few plagues, and that loss itself was a part of the punishment. Even so, the plagues themselves were clear examples of God operating in the world-- whatever their goal, they were a way that was supposed to be easily recognizable. God may have prevented Paroh from reacting to it a certain way, but the message was clear. So, again, God chooses this way of communicating because God chooses this way of communicating (and, perhaps, because other ways didn't work-- when Egypt had it good, they wouldn't recognize God, when Moshe first came to them without punishments, they wouldn't recognize God, so what's left)? You have a deep faith in communication, but the truth is that people hear only what they want to hear, unless social pressure or force of circumstance coerce them otherwise. Sad, but true. These are good questions, but ones that have been answered before in the classic discussions of the Biblical text. While you’re right that the plagues weren’t to get the Egyptians to repent their general sins, they were specifically to get the Egyptians (of their own free will) to accept God’s command to let the Jews go. As Ramban notes, the loss of freewill seems to have happened after the first few plagues, and that loss itself was a part of the punishment. Even so, the plagues themselves were clear examples of God operating in the world– whatever their goal, they were a way that was supposed to be easily recognizable. God may have prevented Paroh from reacting to it a certain way, but the message was clear.

So, again, God chooses this way of communicating because God chooses this way of communicating (and, perhaps, because other ways didn’t work– when Egypt had it good, they wouldn’t recognize God, when Moshe first came to them without punishments, they wouldn’t recognize God, so what’s left)? You have a deep faith in communication, but the truth is that people hear only what they want to hear, unless social pressure or force of circumstance coerce them otherwise. Sad, but true.

]]> Comment on Would We Recognize the Ten Plagues Today? by Gidon Rothstein by Miriam http://text.rcarabbis.org/would-we-recognize-the-ten-plagues-today-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1227 Miriam Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:53:44 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=1060#comment-1227 Thinking about it more, I have a more basic question about the analogy. The ten plagues were _not_ sent to get the Egyptians to stop doing the general bad "maasei eretz mitzrayim" (akin, perhaps, to the problems you allude to in contemporary society). Rather, the point of the plagues was "let My people go." The plagues changed the incentives so that oppressing Jews was no longer in Egypt's self-interest. (Once Egypt saw the connection between keeping the Jews and Egypt's own suffering.) This basic aspect of the plagues has nothing to do with freewill and everything to do with coming to the understanding, however possible, that God wanted the Jews out. Here, again, God could have chosen various ways to make Egypt come to that understanding. What makes you say that God chose the "plague" medium because it induces "a freewill and stark choice?" On the contrary, Plagues seem to have been chosen in part for their punitive/retributive value, and God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart, essentially rejecting Pharaoh's "choice" when he made it, in order to bring more plagues. Sure, God was also interested in Egypt "knowing" God, but the heart-hardening shows that there was still coercion present. So I come back to my original question. If it's really all about "communicating," why would God choose a punitive and coercive form of communication? Thinking about it more, I have a more basic question about the analogy. The ten plagues were _not_ sent to get the Egyptians to stop doing the general bad “maasei eretz mitzrayim” (akin, perhaps, to the problems you allude to in contemporary society). Rather, the point of the plagues was “let My people go.” The plagues changed the incentives so that oppressing Jews was no longer in Egypt’s self-interest. (Once Egypt saw the connection between keeping the Jews and Egypt’s own suffering.) This basic aspect of the plagues has nothing to do with freewill and everything to do with coming to the understanding, however possible, that God wanted the Jews out.

Here, again, God could have chosen various ways to make Egypt come to that understanding. What makes you say that God chose the “plague” medium because it induces “a freewill and stark choice?” On the contrary, Plagues seem to have been chosen in part for their punitive/retributive value, and God “hardened” Pharaoh’s heart, essentially rejecting Pharaoh’s “choice” when he made it, in order to bring more plagues. Sure, God was also interested in Egypt “knowing” God, but the heart-hardening shows that there was still coercion present.

So I come back to my original question. If it’s really all about “communicating,” why would God choose a punitive and coercive form of communication?

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