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	<title>Comments on: Halacha and Autonomous Religiosity: What’s the Problem? by Gidon Rothstein</title>
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	<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/</link>
	<description>Tradition&#039;s Blog of Orthodox Jewish Thought</description>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1285</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-1285</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like anyone knowledgeable about these things to compare and contrast the halacha-related outlooks of these two sets of scholars:

1.  Rabbis Nathan Lopes Cardozo and Francis Nataf

2.  Zechariah Frankel and Heinrich Graetz of Das Jüdisch-Theologische Seminar (The Jewish Theological Seminary) of Breslau (19th century).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like anyone knowledgeable about these things to compare and contrast the halacha-related outlooks of these two sets of scholars:</p>
<p>1.  Rabbis Nathan Lopes Cardozo and Francis Nataf</p>
<p>2.  Zechariah Frankel and Heinrich Graetz of Das Jüdisch-Theologische Seminar (The Jewish Theological Seminary) of Breslau (19th century).</p>
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		<title>By: Balancing Simplicity and Authenticity &#124; Aspaqlaria</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1106</link>
		<dc:creator>Balancing Simplicity and Authenticity &#124; Aspaqlaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-1106</guid>
		<description>[...] problem. The same flaw can be found in Rav Gidon Rothstein&#8217;s response to the article, &#8220;Halacha and Autonomous Religiosity: What’s the Problem?&#8221; on the RCA&#8216;s blog, Text and Texture. In response to an article which suggests too much [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] problem. The same flaw can be found in Rav Gidon Rothstein&#8217;s response to the article, &#8220;Halacha and Autonomous Religiosity: What’s the Problem?&#8221; on the RCA&#8216;s blog, Text and Texture. In response to an article which suggests too much [...]</p>
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		<title>By: micha</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1058</link>
		<dc:creator>micha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-1058</guid>
		<description>I think there is a major failing in not clearly distinguishing between codification and the need for codification. When we say that Rebbe&#039;s decision to codify the mishnah was an instance of overturning a specific law for the sake of the whole, we&#039;re clearly saying the situation was a step down. BUT, that doesn&#039;t mean that codifying -- whether the Mesrashei Halakhah, the Bishnah, the Tosefta, the Talmuds, the Beha&quot;g, the Rif, the Rambam, the Tur, the Shulchan Arukh, the Levush, the Rama, the Shulchan Arukh haRav, the Chayei Adam, the Qitzur, the Arukh haShulchan, the Mishnah Berurah, the Ben Ish Hai, etc, etc, etc.. were themselves a bad idea. It is sad when we reach an impasse that requires a new round of codification. But when we do need it, producing a code is the right response.

The formula the Rambam uses to describe the what gave the Talmud Bavli its binding nature is that it was accepted by &quot;all of Israel&quot;. Not in every one of its rulings, but as the point of origin for further study. And today, across the gamut, semichah studies center around the Shulchan Arukh (with the exception of Bal&#039;adi Teimanim who center their pisqa on the Rambam). The same concept which gives the gemara the authority R&#039; Angel attributes to it gives the Shulchan Arukh its authority.

I also find an interesting point of commonality between the two positions. R&#039; Marc Angel questions the binding nature of evolution to halakhah since the gemara. R&#039; Gidon Rothstein questions the significance of the evolution of aggadita since the rishonim. Both are therefore
calling for some sort of roll back to an earlier state that was more to their likely.

All this said, I am afraid that R&#039; Angel, by going further than most of his audience would be willing to, loses that audience with respect to the primary problem. Orthodox Jews today are under the impression that the job of religion is to provide answers; and moreso, easy-to-understand answers that can resolve life&#039;s dilemmas in one sitting -- all tied up with a nice bow.

In reality, life&#039;s problems are hard. Let me give a story from personal experience. Someone close to me is a baalas teshuvah. The only one in her family in a few generations to embrace observance. And she, like most baalei teshuvah, was presented a worldview in which, if you just believe enough, the only airplane one would miss is the one that was going to crash. (Many of you are familiar with this genre of story that I&#039;m trying to portray.) But she, alone among all her siblings and cousins, went through the crashing pain of losing a daughter. So, where is the &quot;better life&quot; the kiruv professionals led her to expect? Life is not simple, and we do ourselves a disservice pretending it is.

Religion&#039;s job isn&#039;t to resolve life&#039;s struggles, but to give us a meaningful way to grapple with them. Whether we&#039;re talking about our perspective on life, or about pesaq halakhah.

Quick and cut-and-dry one-size-fits-all rulings isn&#039;t how halakhah is supposed to work. While I&#039;m arguing that a ruling that &quot;all of Israel&quot; accepts is binding, we have gone well beyond that with the current proliferation of English halachic guides. There is a feel to the give-and-take of halakhah, to its responses to the costs to the individual, to their personal talents and emotional proclivities, where they stand spiritually and how they view life, that one really not only needs a human halachic decisor, but preferably one who knows the asker and can help them coordinate a spiritual journey through life.

-micha</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is a major failing in not clearly distinguishing between codification and the need for codification. When we say that Rebbe&#8217;s decision to codify the mishnah was an instance of overturning a specific law for the sake of the whole, we&#8217;re clearly saying the situation was a step down. BUT, that doesn&#8217;t mean that codifying &#8212; whether the Mesrashei Halakhah, the Bishnah, the Tosefta, the Talmuds, the Beha&#8221;g, the Rif, the Rambam, the Tur, the Shulchan Arukh, the Levush, the Rama, the Shulchan Arukh haRav, the Chayei Adam, the Qitzur, the Arukh haShulchan, the Mishnah Berurah, the Ben Ish Hai, etc, etc, etc.. were themselves a bad idea. It is sad when we reach an impasse that requires a new round of codification. But when we do need it, producing a code is the right response.</p>
<p>The formula the Rambam uses to describe the what gave the Talmud Bavli its binding nature is that it was accepted by &#8220;all of Israel&#8221;. Not in every one of its rulings, but as the point of origin for further study. And today, across the gamut, semichah studies center around the Shulchan Arukh (with the exception of Bal&#8217;adi Teimanim who center their pisqa on the Rambam). The same concept which gives the gemara the authority R&#8217; Angel attributes to it gives the Shulchan Arukh its authority.</p>
<p>I also find an interesting point of commonality between the two positions. R&#8217; Marc Angel questions the binding nature of evolution to halakhah since the gemara. R&#8217; Gidon Rothstein questions the significance of the evolution of aggadita since the rishonim. Both are therefore<br />
calling for some sort of roll back to an earlier state that was more to their likely.</p>
<p>All this said, I am afraid that R&#8217; Angel, by going further than most of his audience would be willing to, loses that audience with respect to the primary problem. Orthodox Jews today are under the impression that the job of religion is to provide answers; and moreso, easy-to-understand answers that can resolve life&#8217;s dilemmas in one sitting &#8212; all tied up with a nice bow.</p>
<p>In reality, life&#8217;s problems are hard. Let me give a story from personal experience. Someone close to me is a baalas teshuvah. The only one in her family in a few generations to embrace observance. And she, like most baalei teshuvah, was presented a worldview in which, if you just believe enough, the only airplane one would miss is the one that was going to crash. (Many of you are familiar with this genre of story that I&#8217;m trying to portray.) But she, alone among all her siblings and cousins, went through the crashing pain of losing a daughter. So, where is the &#8220;better life&#8221; the kiruv professionals led her to expect? Life is not simple, and we do ourselves a disservice pretending it is.</p>
<p>Religion&#8217;s job isn&#8217;t to resolve life&#8217;s struggles, but to give us a meaningful way to grapple with them. Whether we&#8217;re talking about our perspective on life, or about pesaq halakhah.</p>
<p>Quick and cut-and-dry one-size-fits-all rulings isn&#8217;t how halakhah is supposed to work. While I&#8217;m arguing that a ruling that &#8220;all of Israel&#8221; accepts is binding, we have gone well beyond that with the current proliferation of English halachic guides. There is a feel to the give-and-take of halakhah, to its responses to the costs to the individual, to their personal talents and emotional proclivities, where they stand spiritually and how they view life, that one really not only needs a human halachic decisor, but preferably one who knows the asker and can help them coordinate a spiritual journey through life.</p>
<p>-micha</p>
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		<title>By: Deena</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1027</link>
		<dc:creator>Deena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-1027</guid>
		<description>Oops, forgot to write my name and email so I&#039;m adding them in this comment so that I&#039;ll be made aware of follow-up comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, forgot to write my name and email so I&#8217;m adding them in this comment so that I&#8217;ll be made aware of follow-up comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-1026</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-1026</guid>
		<description>Two questions:

You wrote: &quot;...to find which beliefs and practices are absolutely necessary according to all opinions (such as the belief in God), which leave room for tolerating other opinions we see as wrong (such as when Sephardim and Ashkenazim follow different readings of a Talmudic discussion), and some that leave room for true pluralism, where each of the choices is recognized by all as fully plausible and equally correct.&quot;

On the one hand you are trying to say that pluralism exists in halacha, on the other hand, you gave examples for the first two types of practices but not for the third which is the most pluralistic type. I&#039;m curious, do you have examples for the third? I admit that the lack of examples made me wonder if there are any!

Second question:

You wrote: &quot;I believe the sources of tradition show that the move to ***legislation*** was always a concession to human weakness, not a function of God’s interest in being specific about how we are supposed to worship.  While we cannot turn back the clock, I believe the sources of tradition show us that Judaism as ***codified*** today still leaves ample if not voluminous room for personal input into the shape of one’s relationship with God. 

You seem to mention legislation as a negative thing (it is a concession to human weakness) and codification as a good thing (it leaves ample room for personalized religious practice). What is the difference between these two words?

Thanks for the article! I greatly struggle with some of the halacha so I am very interested in this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two questions:</p>
<p>You wrote: &#8220;&#8230;to find which beliefs and practices are absolutely necessary according to all opinions (such as the belief in God), which leave room for tolerating other opinions we see as wrong (such as when Sephardim and Ashkenazim follow different readings of a Talmudic discussion), and some that leave room for true pluralism, where each of the choices is recognized by all as fully plausible and equally correct.&#8221;</p>
<p>On the one hand you are trying to say that pluralism exists in halacha, on the other hand, you gave examples for the first two types of practices but not for the third which is the most pluralistic type. I&#8217;m curious, do you have examples for the third? I admit that the lack of examples made me wonder if there are any!</p>
<p>Second question:</p>
<p>You wrote: &#8220;I believe the sources of tradition show that the move to ***legislation*** was always a concession to human weakness, not a function of God’s interest in being specific about how we are supposed to worship.  While we cannot turn back the clock, I believe the sources of tradition show us that Judaism as ***codified*** today still leaves ample if not voluminous room for personal input into the shape of one’s relationship with God. </p>
<p>You seem to mention legislation as a negative thing (it is a concession to human weakness) and codification as a good thing (it leaves ample room for personalized religious practice). What is the difference between these two words?</p>
<p>Thanks for the article! I greatly struggle with some of the halacha so I am very interested in this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoel B</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-972</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoel B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-972</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not disputing the concept of being qualified for admission to the decision making. And obviously the submarine search lent itself perfectly to a comparing two approaches that were empirically evauatable (&quot;let&#039;s reach a consensus&quot; vs &quot;plot each opinion on the map and geographically average them.&quot;) The latter found the sub without any one opinion having been correct. That is not really analogous to any halachic process I know of. But among those asked to contribute, there was a wide range of backgrounds. My impression is that diversity and independence of opinion are declining (when I think of loss of diversity, &quot;Nusach ArtScroll is emblematic.) My point is not to prescribe a solution (WAY above my pay grade) but rather to ask whether the process is skewing in a direction more likely to produce bad decisions; the drive to chumra seems to be an example of the loss of diversity and independence of opinion: sometimes, &quot;what the neighbors might think&quot; shouldn&#039;t be a factor -- unless it&#039;s out of real respect for the neighbors and not out of a herd mentality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not disputing the concept of being qualified for admission to the decision making. And obviously the submarine search lent itself perfectly to a comparing two approaches that were empirically evauatable (&#8220;let&#8217;s reach a consensus&#8221; vs &#8220;plot each opinion on the map and geographically average them.&#8221;) The latter found the sub without any one opinion having been correct. That is not really analogous to any halachic process I know of. But among those asked to contribute, there was a wide range of backgrounds. My impression is that diversity and independence of opinion are declining (when I think of loss of diversity, &#8220;Nusach ArtScroll is emblematic.) My point is not to prescribe a solution (WAY above my pay grade) but rather to ask whether the process is skewing in a direction more likely to produce bad decisions; the drive to chumra seems to be an example of the loss of diversity and independence of opinion: sometimes, &#8220;what the neighbors might think&#8221; shouldn&#8217;t be a factor &#8212; unless it&#8217;s out of real respect for the neighbors and not out of a herd mentality.</p>
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		<title>By: Gidon Rothstein</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-971</link>
		<dc:creator>Gidon Rothstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-971</guid>
		<description>Yoel, 

I agree with the need for diversity of opinion, although I&#039;m not sure that Surowiecki insists on decentralization-- a market is centralized, in that all come together to buy there; I think he just means that people don&#039;t just follow the pack at some point, lose their independence.  In any case, Surowiecki does seem to agree that there are standards for who the crowd is-- in his example of the lost nuclear sub, e.g., the person who got the wisdom of the crowd picked people who had some relevant knowledge, not just a million people off the street. So, in halachah, we would want diversity of opinion (although, as in that case, we&#039;d also want a mechanism that puts it all together to a conclusion as well), but only diversity of opinion from those with some kind of relevance and expertise that qualifies them to be part of the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yoel, </p>
<p>I agree with the need for diversity of opinion, although I&#8217;m not sure that Surowiecki insists on decentralization&#8211; a market is centralized, in that all come together to buy there; I think he just means that people don&#8217;t just follow the pack at some point, lose their independence.  In any case, Surowiecki does seem to agree that there are standards for who the crowd is&#8211; in his example of the lost nuclear sub, e.g., the person who got the wisdom of the crowd picked people who had some relevant knowledge, not just a million people off the street. So, in halachah, we would want diversity of opinion (although, as in that case, we&#8217;d also want a mechanism that puts it all together to a conclusion as well), but only diversity of opinion from those with some kind of relevance and expertise that qualifies them to be part of the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoel B</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-968</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoel B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-968</guid>
		<description>Rabbi Rothstein, perhaps you don&#039;t see loss of diversity of opinion, but in Surowiecki&#039;s thinking each of his four criteria is sine qua non so I&#039;m still wondering if my impression – loss of independence and of decentralization – seems correct to you. Also, isn&#039;t that an assessment that is properly made before any screening for validity is applied?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabbi Rothstein, perhaps you don&#8217;t see loss of diversity of opinion, but in Surowiecki&#8217;s thinking each of his four criteria is sine qua non so I&#8217;m still wondering if my impression – loss of independence and of decentralization – seems correct to you. Also, isn&#8217;t that an assessment that is properly made before any screening for validity is applied?</p>
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		<title>By: Halacha and Autonomous Religiosity: What’s the Problem? &#171; Jewish Book Review</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-967</link>
		<dc:creator>Halacha and Autonomous Religiosity: What’s the Problem? &#171; Jewish Book Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 07:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-967</guid>
		<description>[...] The original text of the article may be found here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The original text of the article may be found here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gidon Rothstein</title>
		<link>http://text.rcarabbis.org/halacha-and-autonomous-religiosity-what%e2%80%99s-the-problem-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-955</link>
		<dc:creator>Gidon Rothstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=923#comment-955</guid>
		<description>Just to note: I was the most recent Anonymous-- I just forgot to put in my name. Gidon Rothstein</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to note: I was the most recent Anonymous&#8211; I just forgot to put in my name. Gidon Rothstein</p>
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