Comments on: Balancing the Necessity and Abhorrence of Violence: Of Terrorists and Amalek by Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/ Tradition's Blog of Orthodox Jewish Thought Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:29:58 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Daniel Ben-Aher http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-561 Daniel Ben-Aher Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:45:16 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-561 Well, you're certainly right, in the sense that it would definitely be preferable to have peace, and it would surely be wonderful if the world was not full of people who fervently march in the path of Amalek...However, this is simply not the reality. HaShem has apparently decreed that during these current times, Amalek will not only be present, but will clash with us at every opportunity. Although this may not be the "preferred reality," it is the only reality in which we live. Certainly we can wish that the current reality was not so, but this will not change the facts on the ground. On a similar vein, it would be much better if murderers didn't exist - but they do. Not only do they exist, but they MUST exist - as I'm sure you know, if there was no choice to do evil, then there would be no choice to do good, and we would have no path to cleave to HaShem - indeed, we would be as angels, with no free will. If we had no free will, then we would have no reason to live, as well as no Torah. I guess the bottom line is that although we may wish for reality to be different, that does not make it so; we must devote our energies to finding solutions and just paths within the current reality, not waste our time fantasizing about "how nice it would be if..." Thank you. Well, you’re certainly right, in the sense that it would definitely be preferable to have peace, and it would surely be wonderful if the world was not full of people who fervently march in the path of Amalek…However, this is simply not the reality. HaShem has apparently decreed that during these current times, Amalek will not only be present, but will clash with us at every opportunity. Although this may not be the “preferred reality,” it is the only reality in which we live. Certainly we can wish that the current reality was not so, but this will not change the facts on the ground. On a similar vein, it would be much better if murderers didn’t exist – but they do. Not only do they exist, but they MUST exist – as I’m sure you know, if there was no choice to do evil, then there would be no choice to do good, and we would have no path to cleave to HaShem – indeed, we would be as angels, with no free will. If we had no free will, then we would have no reason to live, as well as no Torah. I guess the bottom line is that although we may wish for reality to be different, that does not make it so; we must devote our energies to finding solutions and just paths within the current reality, not waste our time fantasizing about “how nice it would be if…”

Thank you.

]]> By: Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-552 Gidon Rothstein Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:07:25 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-552 Fascinating. I didn't say we'd sing songs with Paro, I said that Paro would admit that God rules the world and let the Jews leave. And if we see Amalek today, again, it would clearly be better if they came to realize they were wrong and accept our view of the world. That doesn't mean to be Pollyannaish or to assume they're better than they are, but to recognize that, if we could, we'd rather build a world without violence than with. You may be right that it's impossible right now, and that we have to act forcefully to defeat our enemies; if so, we have to do it without hesitation and with all necessary force, but it is almost disturbing that so many people think that's the ideal, from a Jewish perspective. Is it the ideal to kill murderers (as the Torah says) or not to have murderers to begin with? To kill idol worshippers or not to have any to begin with? To wipe out a city that worships idols or not to have such a city? To kill Sabbath violators, or not to have them to begin with? These are internal Jewish values, not American or Western ones-- violence may be necessary, but it's rarely if ever preferred. Fascinating. I didn’t say we’d sing songs with Paro, I said that Paro would admit that God rules the world and let the Jews leave. And if we see Amalek today, again, it would clearly be better if they came to realize they were wrong and accept our view of the world. That doesn’t mean to be Pollyannaish or to assume they’re better than they are, but to recognize that, if we could, we’d rather build a world without violence than with. You may be right that it’s impossible right now, and that we have to act forcefully to defeat our enemies; if so, we have to do it without hesitation and with all necessary force, but it is almost disturbing that so many people think that’s the ideal, from a Jewish perspective. Is it the ideal to kill murderers (as the Torah says) or not to have murderers to begin with? To kill idol worshippers or not to have any to begin with? To wipe out a city that worships idols or not to have such a city? To kill Sabbath violators, or not to have them to begin with? These are internal Jewish values, not American or Western ones– violence may be necessary, but it’s rarely if ever preferred.

]]> By: Daniel Ben-Asher http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-551 Daniel Ben-Asher Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:21:46 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-551 [Continued] Regarding your quote: Dont forget that HaShem hardened Paros heart; he had no choice but refuse Moshe Rabeynu. Clearly HaShem did not want Paro to hold hands with Moshe Rabeynu and sing songs of friendship. After all, if that happened, then Am Yisrael would have stayed in Egypt, and we would never have been lead out, and all that came with that! No Torah, No Eretz Yisael...Nothing. So you see, when you look with your American eyes, you see the situation from such an incorrect angle. Return to your roots. Thank you. [Continued]

Regarding your quote:

Dont forget that HaShem hardened Paros heart; he had no choice but refuse Moshe Rabeynu. Clearly HaShem did not want Paro to hold hands with Moshe Rabeynu and sing songs of friendship. After all, if that happened, then Am Yisrael would have stayed in Egypt, and we would never have been lead out, and all that came with that! No Torah, No Eretz Yisael…Nothing. So you see, when you look with your American eyes, you see the situation from such an incorrect angle. Return to your roots.

Thank you.

]]> By: Daniel Ben-Asher http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-550 Daniel Ben-Asher Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:14:22 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-550 Regarding "actual Amalek," Sir, I must agree with Steve Brizel, in the sense that I think that you are trying to look at Torah through foreign eyes, if you will. What I mean is that your way of thinking and seeing the world is through American eyes. For "Americans" there is nothing wrong with this, but you are literally a son of Israel, and you should try to remove the veil from your eyes. Here in Eretz Yisrael, it is very very clear who represents Amalek. Our cousins, with their society that exalts death and the wholesale murder of Jews of all ages and types form a chain that leads all the way to distant Persia, to a man who is trying to build the Bomb. This man funds those who storm kindergardens with automatic weapons and explode themselves at Pessah seders. If this is not clear to you, something is wrong. Regarding Cairo... if you know who Amalek is, and you know who Am Yisrael is, then you need to examine each country and examine where thier loyalties fall, and why. Finally, I quote from your previous response: "Wouldn’t it have been better if Paroh let the Jews go and fully accepted Hashem’s rule (wholeheartedly) than the Makkot?" Regarding “actual Amalek,” Sir, I must agree with Steve Brizel, in the sense that I think that you are trying to look at Torah through foreign eyes, if you will. What I mean is that your way of thinking and seeing the world is through American eyes. For “Americans” there is nothing wrong with this, but you are literally a son of Israel, and you should try to remove the veil from your eyes. Here in Eretz Yisrael, it is very very clear who represents Amalek. Our cousins, with their society that exalts death and the wholesale murder of Jews of all ages and types form a chain that leads all the way to distant Persia, to a man who is trying to build the Bomb. This man funds those who storm kindergardens with automatic weapons and explode themselves at Pessah seders. If this is not clear to you, something is wrong. Regarding Cairo… if you know who Amalek is, and you know who Am Yisrael is, then you need to examine each country and examine where thier loyalties fall, and why.

Finally, I quote from your previous response:
“Wouldn’t it have been better if Paroh let the Jews go and fully accepted Hashem’s rule (wholeheartedly) than the Makkot?”

]]> By: Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-542 Gidon Rothstein Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:19:23 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-542 I don't know why hoping for better outcomes in the future is "Woodstock"-y, nor do Paroh's failures change the nature of the ideal we hope for. And, if you ask me, we every day shape the kind of Mashiach we will eventually get. My point was that we should be thinking about this stuff all the time. And, whatever Chasidus says about how we should change ourselves, it is metaphorical regarding Amalek; I was speaking of actual Amalek and what we could do on that front. I don’t know why hoping for better outcomes in the future is “Woodstock”-y, nor do Paroh’s failures change the nature of the ideal we hope for. And, if you ask me, we every day shape the kind of Mashiach we will eventually get. My point was that we should be thinking about this stuff all the time. And, whatever Chasidus says about how we should change ourselves, it is metaphorical regarding Amalek; I was speaking of actual Amalek and what we could do on that front.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-541 Steve Brizel Sun, 07 Feb 2010 04:14:57 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-541 WADR, the world that we live in is neither patterned on "Woodstock" nor "Imagine" and does not allow for such preferences. The dream of mass conversion or the acceptance of the Noachide Mitzvos is a wonderful idea but one which remains at best eschatological in nature-i.e., Hilchas LMeshicha, with as much present hope for the same happening as the outlawing of war by treaty achieving such a reality. As far as Pharoah is concerned, the Torah records that he was given multiple opportunities, but refused to let the Jewish People go because of his meglomanical personality and belief in his own deity and divinity-a model that the Jewish People and the peoples of the world have experienced all too often in this world. Pharoah remains the model of a leader who God to inflict plagues upon his country by Himself to remind the world that man does not run this world. I would suggest that if we were to look into Chasidic thought, we would find a lot of discussion on the Amalek that is present in every Jew and the factors that prevent each of us from unifying the spiritual and material aspects of our personalities and "cool off" our ardor for Avodas HaShem. WADR, the world that we live in is neither patterned on “Woodstock” nor “Imagine” and does not allow for such preferences. The dream of mass conversion or the acceptance of the Noachide Mitzvos is a wonderful idea but one which remains at best eschatological in nature-i.e., Hilchas LMeshicha, with as much present hope for the same happening as the outlawing of war by treaty achieving such a reality.

As far as Pharoah is concerned, the Torah records that he was given multiple opportunities, but refused to let the Jewish People go because of his meglomanical personality and belief in his own deity and divinity-a model that the Jewish People and the peoples of the world have experienced all too often in this world. Pharoah remains the model of a leader who God to inflict plagues upon his country by Himself to remind the world that man does not run this world.

I would suggest that if we were to look into Chasidic thought, we would find a lot of discussion on the Amalek that is present in every Jew and the factors that prevent each of us from unifying the spiritual and material aspects of our personalities and “cool off” our ardor for Avodas HaShem.

]]> By: Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-540 Gidon Rothstein Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:34:15 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-540 Well, yes and no. I tried hard to be clear that if we had to, of course we would completely destroy Amalek by killing all involved. But I happen to think that we all should prefer wiping out Amalek in less violent ways (such as by their all converting to Judaism, or, for Rambam, accepting subservience to the Jews and the 7 Noahides). Couldn't we all agree that, not because of squeamishness but because that's how Hashem prefers the world, it would be better to wipe out Amalek one of those two ways? Wouldn't it have been better if Paroh let the Jews go and fully accepted Hashem's rule (wholeheartedly) than the Makkot? I really don't think this is apologetics; it's a reminder that "maasei yadai tovim bayam ve-atem omrim shirah" means that violence may be necessary, but it's never pleasant or preferred. Well, yes and no. I tried hard to be clear that if we had to, of course we would completely destroy Amalek by killing all involved. But I happen to think that we all should prefer wiping out Amalek in less violent ways (such as by their all converting to Judaism, or, for Rambam, accepting subservience to the Jews and the 7 Noahides). Couldn’t we all agree that, not because of squeamishness but because that’s how Hashem prefers the world, it would be better to wipe out Amalek one of those two ways? Wouldn’t it have been better if Paroh let the Jews go and fully accepted Hashem’s rule (wholeheartedly) than the Makkot? I really don’t think this is apologetics; it’s a reminder that “maasei yadai tovim bayam ve-atem omrim shirah” means that violence may be necessary, but it’s never pleasant or preferred.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://text.rcarabbis.org/balancing-the-necessity-and-abhorrence-of-violence-of-terrorists-and-amalek-by-gidon-rothstein/comment-page-1/#comment-538 Steve Brizel Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:44:56 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=748#comment-538 WADR, the above post struck me as an exercise in apologetics to a certain liberal/academic/cultural and pacifist oriented post Vietnam elite that fails to understand that evil should not be allowed to grow and fester in the world. RYBS in Out of the Whirlwind ( or The Emergence of Ethical Man) clearly stated that the verses in Koheles that posit there are times for war and peace, etc, stated that there are times when evil must be eradicated, whether in the political, medical or other realms. At times, as General Sherman pointed out "war is hell", but as George Will has aptly mentioned, if we applied today's media standards to the American Civil War, we would still have slavery in the US. I believe that we err in apologizing for the existence of the mitzvah and in sounding squeamish as to its application to enemies that use civilian populations and facilities as well as adults and minors in civilian clothes and that have no hesitation in seeking to bring terror to Israel and the US. WADR, the above post struck me as an exercise in apologetics to a certain liberal/academic/cultural and pacifist oriented post Vietnam elite that fails to understand that evil should not be allowed to grow and fester in the world. RYBS in Out of the Whirlwind ( or The Emergence of Ethical Man) clearly stated that the verses in Koheles that posit there are times for war and peace, etc, stated that there are times when evil must be eradicated, whether in the political, medical or other realms. At times, as General Sherman pointed out “war is hell”, but as George Will has aptly mentioned, if we applied today’s media standards to the American Civil War, we would still have slavery in the US. I believe that we err in apologizing for the existence of the mitzvah and in sounding squeamish as to its application to enemies that use civilian populations and facilities as well as adults and minors in civilian clothes and that have no hesitation in seeking to bring terror to Israel and the US.

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