Comments on: שאל אביך ויגדך: What Are the Parameters of Looking to Tradition for Guidance? http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/ Tradition's Blog of Orthodox Jewish Thought Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:29:58 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Yisroel Chaim http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-353 Yisroel Chaim Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:55:39 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-353 In the upper left of the Nach Yomi page, there is a drop-down box that says "Choose Book." -Sorry In the upper left of the Nach Yomi page, there is a drop-down box that says “Choose Book.” -Sorry

]]> By: Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-352 Gidon Rothstein Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:58:29 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-352 I agree with David Tzohar that we have to recover such traditions, although I also think some science has to be taken skeptically. I didn't realize Nach Yomi had been cleared for the next cycle, thanks for telling me. I agree with David Tzohar that we have to recover such traditions, although I also think some science has to be taken skeptically. I didn’t realize Nach Yomi had been cleared for the next cycle, thanks for telling me.

]]> By: Yisroel Chaim http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-347 Yisroel Chaim Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:27:19 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-347 Can archeology transmit tradition? Does Ramban's Shekel in Acre help in this matter? PS "the OU’s Nach Yomi project, an online repository of shiurim on all of Neviim and Ketuvim" has been cleared as the new cycle begins Can archeology transmit tradition? Does Ramban’s Shekel in Acre help in this matter?

PS “the OU’s Nach Yomi project, an online repository of shiurim on all of Neviim and Ketuvim” has been cleared as the new cycle begins

]]> By: David Tzohar http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-326 David Tzohar Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:28:22 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-326 Where do we look for guidence when tradition is lost or forgotten? In an iggeret datedד שבט ה תשנב Rav Avraham Kahana Shapira ztzl deals with the question of shiury tora where tradition has been lost as in what is the equivalent of kezayit matza and can we use modern scientific findings to determine its specific gravity,weight etc.He mentions the"pulmus hatchelet between Rav Yoshe Ber and the Radzhiner Rebbe.He disagrees with Rav Yoshe Ber and says That in shiury tora as in tchelet the lack of a consistant and unbroken tradition we must use other raayot including science to clarify psikat halacha.He concludes by saying that the final proof will only come by seeing how future generations act "if the children of Israel are not prophets then they are the sons of prophets" Where do we look for guidence when tradition is lost or forgotten?
In an iggeret datedד שבט ה תשנב Rav Avraham Kahana Shapira ztzl deals with the question of shiury tora where tradition has been lost as in what is the equivalent of kezayit matza and can we use modern scientific findings to determine its specific gravity,weight etc.He mentions the”pulmus hatchelet between Rav Yoshe Ber and the Radzhiner Rebbe.He disagrees with Rav Yoshe Ber and says That in shiury tora as in tchelet the lack of a consistant and unbroken tradition we must use other raayot including science to clarify psikat halacha.He concludes by saying that the final proof will only come by seeing how future generations act “if the children of Israel are not prophets then they are the sons of prophets”

]]> By: Gidon Rothstein http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-314 Gidon Rothstein Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:32:05 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-314 Thanks for your comments-- I'm not sure what the difference is between a question about how far a color extends and what that color is-- for the extension cases, we don't know whether it's red or brown, or whatever. Obviously, the question is the dateline, but it still means there are parts of the world where we don't (halachically) know what day of the week it is. And, the obligation to listen to what long-ago prophets said is certainly not what Rambam meant by the continuing mitsvah to listen to the words of a navi, as is clear from reading his description of the mitsvah. As for Mois Navon, who certainly is more of an expert on these issues than I, I thank you for the reference and the nuance as to their conversation that the Radzyner's version has. Thanks for your comments– I’m not sure what the difference is between a question about how far a color extends and what that color is– for the extension cases, we don’t know whether it’s red or brown, or whatever. Obviously, the question is the dateline, but it still means there are parts of the world where we don’t (halachically) know what day of the week it is.
And, the obligation to listen to what long-ago prophets said is certainly not what Rambam meant by the continuing mitsvah to listen to the words of a navi, as is clear from reading his description of the mitsvah.
As for Mois Navon, who certainly is more of an expert on these issues than I, I thank you for the reference and the nuance as to their conversation that the Radzyner’s version has.

]]> By: Mois Navon http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-313 Mois Navon Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:10:26 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-313 The issue of mesorah, especially regarding the Beit HaLevi is an interesting one which I have written about in an article entitled, “On History, Mesorah, and Nignaz” (available at: http://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/HistoryMesorahNignaz.pdf). In short, while it is true that the Rav records his great-grandfather’s correspondence with the Radzyner in terms of a need for mesorah, there is a fine distinction, brought out in the Radzyner’s record of the correspondence, which bears careful consideration. It is noted there that the Beit Halevi asked, to the effect, “if this ‘hillazon’ was known to my father and to my grandfather, etc., and yet they didn’t have any mesorah attached to it, why should I now accept it as the hillazon shel tekhelet?!” That is to say, since the squid (Sepia officinalis) proposed by the Radzyner has always been known, it comes with a known mesorah, albeit a negative one. However, when it comes to the Murex snail now being proposed as the hillazon shel tekhelet, the words of the Beit Halevi argue in its favor. According to all accounts the Murex snail had been lost to the Jewish people from sometime between the years 474 – 1038 CE (and lost to the non-Jewish world since 1453), only to be rediscovered in 1857. As such, the Beit Halevi would obligate the use of halachic evidence in the face of a broken mesorah – a break ranging from between 400 to over 1300 years. The issue of mesorah, especially regarding the Beit HaLevi is an interesting one which I have written about in an article entitled, “On History, Mesorah, and Nignaz” (available at: http://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/HistoryMesorahNignaz.pdf).

In short, while it is true that the Rav records his great-grandfather’s correspondence with the Radzyner in terms of a need for mesorah, there is a fine distinction, brought out in the Radzyner’s record of the correspondence, which bears careful consideration. It is noted there that the Beit Halevi asked, to the effect, “if this ‘hillazon’ was known to my father and to my grandfather, etc., and yet they didn’t have any mesorah attached to it, why should I now accept it as the hillazon shel tekhelet?!” That is to say, since the squid (Sepia officinalis) proposed by the Radzyner has always been known, it comes with a known mesorah, albeit a negative one.

However, when it comes to the Murex snail now being proposed as the hillazon shel tekhelet, the words of the Beit Halevi argue in its favor. According to all accounts the Murex snail had been lost to the Jewish people from sometime between the years 474 – 1038 CE (and lost to the non-Jewish world since 1453), only to be rediscovered in 1857. As such, the Beit Halevi would obligate the use of halachic evidence in the face of a broken mesorah – a break ranging from between 400 to over 1300 years.

]]> By: Big Maybe http://text.rcarabbis.org/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%91%d7%99%d7%9a-%d7%95%d7%99%d7%92%d7%93%d7%9a-what-are-the-parameters-of-looking-to-tradition-for-guidance/comment-page-1/#comment-301 Big Maybe Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:34:42 +0000 http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=446#comment-301 <i> we have halachic debates today about the definition of certain colors (notably, in the context of the laws of niddah, the definition of the color brown). In certain parts of the world—where the definition of the dateline is in dispute—we are not sure about which day of the week is Shabbat. </i> It isn't a dispute about what color is red, but how far do we extend the color to either side on the spectrum. There's no dispute that Saturday is Shabbat, but rather it is a dispute about the location of the IDL which in turn leads to uncertainty on the ground in a particular swath of the globe whether it is Saturday or Sunday. <i> Rambam seems to include the commandment to listen to a prophet among the sixty commandments that obligate all Jews in all times and places... </i> There are commands we follow today whose source is the words of the prophets of long ago. Thus the commandment to follow the prophet undoubtedly applies today.
we have halachic debates today about the definition of certain colors (notably, in the context of the laws of niddah, the definition of the color brown). In certain parts of the world—where the definition of the dateline is in dispute—we are not sure about which day of the week is Shabbat.

It isn’t a dispute about what color is red, but how far do we extend the color to either side on the spectrum. There’s no dispute that Saturday is Shabbat, but rather it is a dispute about the location of the IDL which in turn leads to uncertainty on the ground in a particular swath of the globe whether it is Saturday or Sunday.

Rambam seems to include the commandment to listen to a prophet among the sixty commandments that obligate all Jews in all times and places…

There are commands we follow today whose source is the words of the prophets of long ago. Thus the commandment to follow the prophet undoubtedly applies today.

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